Curse

ratatass · Mar 08, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Nice Read indeed!

Thank you for the in depth analysis of the Defy Pain/Endure Pain Combo. I have been thoroughly confused for quite a while on this combo.

So, that is interessting. You are at 1 hp. Throw Endure and you buy some time to heal. Goddie, goodie. You will have to make your healer aware of this though!

Thank you very much for write up!

Ratatass

Sphynx · Mar 08, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

With respect to endure and defy pain:

I was quite surprised when reading this article as to how it discribed the mechanics of gaining/loosing health when using the skills at a time when you are not at full hit points.
My experiments with Demonic Flesh, which increases your maximum health, sugested that when your maximum health changes, your health in proportion to that maximum doesnt change. So, for example casting demonic flesh with 12 blood magic (sacrifice 101 health, increase your maximum by 176), what was happening was that your 480 health jumped to 480+176-101=555 health, and your max jumped to 480+176=656.
When it wore off, if you were, for example, at 328/656 (ie 1/2 max) health, you would go to being 240/480 health (still 1/2 max).
This meant that if you took 200 damage, for example, while demonic flesh was cast, when it wore off, that would be the equivelent of only 200*(480/656)=146 dam.

So, do Defy Pain and Endure Pain realy work in the additive way described in the article, or are they actually working in this proportional way like the demonic flesh?

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 08, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Sphynx, there are two explanations.

A) Demonic Flesh works differently than Endure/Defy Pain. They're different skills from different lines from different professions. And although they both add health they don't add it in the same way. Ie I'm right.

B) There's been a change to Defy/Endure since I've tried them last and I'm talking out of my ass. Ie You're right.

We'd have to wait until the next BWE to find out which version is the correct explanation. For what it's worth the last time I used Demonic Flesh I found it to work pretty much like Defy/Endure. A percentile raising and lowering makes a lot more sense, especially in light of the way Deep Wound works now (there's already code out there to drop people's health by a percentage, basically) and does make the Pain pair much more useable. They're no longer so much of a panic button you can use to avoid trouble - a quick and dirty way to make sure that you don't drop below 1 hit point for at least a few hits - but they are much more like what I got into at the end of the article, just another way of increasing your armor. For that matter, a better version of increasing your armor because while there are armor penetrating skills, there aren't many skills that deal damage that don't care about your total hit points (Grenth's Balance is the only one I can think of off hand), so since you take the same damage from an ingore armor skill no matter your total hit points you'd be reducing their effective damage. You do, however, reduce the efficiency of healing in a similar manner to damage so it's a bit of a wash. That 100 hp heal when you're buffed up shrinks when the buff fades, too, after all. All that adds up to a much better skill. Especially Defy Pain which, I think, you can run almost continuously. All you need is one more strike of adrenaline from some source and you should be able to earn those 7 strikes of adrenaline in the 8 seconds in the time it takes Defy Pain to fade. Just using an attack speed buff should do that for you (Using a sword/axe, of course, hammers are out of luck, as usual)...

Anyone out there use Defy/Endure last BWE that can clear things up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

So, that is interessting. You are at 1 hp. Throw Endure and you buy some time to heal. Goddie, goodie. You will have to make your healer aware of this though!

Right, I generally CTRL-click whenever I use Endure Pain (I tend not to use Defy in favor of other things) so that the rest of my team knows I think I'm in trouble somehow. They need to know what it means, of course, as unless you're at low hit points you won't see the health bar display change when you use something like Endure - it's a percentile representation and unless you're really low you're not changing the percentage of current to maximum health very much. But yes, the Endure Pain button is akin to screaming "HEAL ME NOW!!!!" A healer has to know what Endure is to know what I'm saying with it, true, but then people should be familiar with skills outside the ones they use, in a perfect world.

Ellestar · Mar 10, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex (Defy Pain and Endure Pain)

Where adding armor will keep you from dying by reducing the amount of damage each attack will do, adding health will keep you from dying by increasing your ability to survive each attack. With 100 hits points you can be hit for 20 damage five times before you die. If you increase your armor so that you take 10 damage a hit you’ll last for ten blows. But if you increase your health by 100 hit points, so that you’ll have 200, you’ve accomplished the same thing, just through another method. Adding health, then, can be seen as analogous to adding more armor. What the Pain pair do, by adding more health is almost the same as if they’d temporarily increased your armor. Adding 258 health to a character with 480 health is roughly equivalent to temporarily adding 40AL to that character. You’ll halve the damage you take, not by dropping the numbers on the hits, but by dropping the percentage of your overall health they’re taking away. But, since you rapidly transition from that increased protection back to your normal protection – and, unlike if you’d added armor you’ll bear the full brunt of the effects of damage long after your protection fades - it’s probably not going to aid your character that much.

IMHO it's a little misleading. In a games with healing (especially that powerful like in Guild Wars) higher armor is generally a lot better than higher health even if they have same Effective Health = Health / Defensive_Adjustment because target recieves less damage from most sources and so it effectively improves heals.

***

Also, you mentioned switching weapons. Do you know, if there is any delay when you switch weapons? Say, if i'm attacking with one weapon and switch to another, do i lose some time without attacking waiting when switching animation will end etc.?

Ensign · Mar 10, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Generally I'd agree that I'd rather have armor than base health if the two choices resulted in the same effective health - however, you don't want to take this to extremes simply because attacks that penetrate or ignore armor are not all that uncommon. If you're a caster the extra armor is certainly preferable as ignore armor isn't going to have a huge effect, but if you're a Warrior with heavy armor and a shield you should definitely be grabbing the +health over +armor, because armor penetration and ignores armor effects are going to be what really rip you apart.

Weapon swapping doesn't cost you any time - you can't do it during an attack or skill without interrupting yourself, but if you make the switch between attacks you don't skip a beat. I'd like to see the ability to queue up a weapon swap - hit the key during a skill, and you'll switch immediately upon completion of the skill. Assuming, of course, that isn't already in the game. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Hikarate · Mar 10, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

It sounds like these Pain skills just delay the damage. If you add Armor it will actually block a % of the damage. The Pain skills buffer the damage while in effect, and when they expire the damage is still dealt as it was originally received to your base HP. If +Armor spells worked the same way, they would block a % of the damage while active, and then once they expire you would take all the damage that armor originally blocked.
Sounds like +armor is a better choice in most cases.
Thanks for the info.

Sphynx · Mar 10, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Note that the elite pain skill give you armour too!

THX · Mar 13, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

The latest Spotlight is on Dwarven Battle Stance, read the column here.

ratatass · Mar 14, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

As usual I great write up. I am little dissapointed in not finding an UBER Combo with a twist that makes this skill worthwhile. And the reason for it - is probably that there isn't.

I do not understand the finer mechanics of the game, but using an elite slot that prevents you from using any skills in 8-9 amount of seconds - is hard to justify. Yes it is fine to have the caster not able to do anything for 8 seconds, but I don't think I would have a problem with it in PvP - I never hit the guys back, it would actually be too most casters benefit.

In PvE, trying to control multiple target with such a skill ? Maybe - but usually the 4 Char Warriors hacking on you are using regular melee attacks. It is those that kill you - not the power spikes now and then.

On another note, Ensign says that your really don't know your effectivness of skills untill you try them and test them out under different conditions. It might be worth a try to test it out and see if it is some use. I might do that. Idefinetly will test Defy Pain and Endure Pain, just to see how they work for me.

Thank you for another great writeup!

Ratatass

Sphynx · Mar 14, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

I would think one of the better uses for this skill would be to deal with those irritatingly hard bosses that keep healing themselves in pve; 8 seconds of them failing to get of that critical healing spell might well be enough for them to die.
It also occured to me that it would be a good idea to use it when your skills are short of adrenaline; you will likly be left doing several normal attacks to charge up the adrenaline skills at some point - why not spend that time interupting your target as well?

nicosharp · Mar 14, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Now that most warriors seem to be the designated rezzers in a team, I think that this stance could be effective for a mid-battle after-adrenaline ressurection stopper. Of course, this skill is basically only effective on primary elementalists with aoe, a ranger trying to troll unguent, or primary/secondary monks with ressurection, unless you have the timing of a god.

Dovi the Monk · Mar 14, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

its basically just one of those ok elites, has some purposes out there, but there are much better skills to choose for your elite. it would prob beuseful against a caster, but thats about it, and in pve like what was said

it may help in the capture of bears in pre seaered ascalon, but i dont think u can get the skill yet.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 15, 2005, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I'll point out that a build using DBS is up here although you're probably all already familiar with the basics of it. It's just a nasty little interrupt/denial build, I wouldn't be using it to deal damage with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Generally I'd agree that I'd rather have armor than base health if the two choices resulted in the same effective health - however, you don't want to take this to extremes simply because attacks that penetrate or ignore armor are not all that uncommon. If you're a caster the extra armor is certainly preferable as ignore armor isn't going to have a huge effect, but if you're a Warrior with heavy armor and a shield you should definitely be grabbing the +health over +armor, because armor penetration and ignores armor effects are going to be what really rip you apart.

Right, there are pluses and minuses either way, scenarios where one is better than the other and all that, but the net effect is to add more defense to your character. And defense is, ultimately, just to keep you from catching the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratatass

As usual I great write up. I am little dissapointed in not finding an UBER Combo with a twist that makes this skill worthwhile. And the reason for it - is probably that there isn't....
On another note, Ensign says that your really don't know your effectivness of skills untill you try them and test them out under different conditions. It might be worth a try to test it out and see if it is some use. I might do that.

By all means, do try these things out for yourself. These columns are opinions, for the most part. Namely mine. Granted, I probably have more experience with these skills and a clearer picture of just how they've altered and changed over time than most but beyond the bare facts it's nothing more than my opinion. And I most definitely do not hold myself up as the final arbiter off all things GW. Your opinions may well differ from mine. Just because I or the common wisdom can see no value in a skill doesn't mean there is none.

Try them for yourselves. You never know, you might be onto something no one else's figured out yet. Or you could fail horribly but, hey, it's a game.

Except, don't try DBS. It's horrid. I've tried it and while it's useful in spot duty - say for when you really don't want someone to do much for a brief moment - it can be pretty effective. But you can't really captalize on it yourself, you'll need your teammates to help your out because there's no way to crank out the damage - or even the interrupts, really - while using DBS. I'd consider it as a hammer war if it was a normal skill, maybe, but it's just not worth the elite slot at the present time. Cut the recharge time so you can get something closer to 50% efficiency out of it or make it adrenal and we'll talk. I still don't get why it's not linked to hammers, either, while I'm at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphynx

I would think one of the better uses for this skill would be to deal with those irritatingly hard bosses that keep healing themselves in pve; 8 seconds of them failing to get of that critical healing spell might well be enough for them to die.

Right, if you really need to stop someone from using something to open that window of opportunity it can really shine. I personally found good use for it to prevent the Hero from capturing a dias when, say, you had five or six seconds until the rez (Although for that you could use Earthshaker or Backbreaker just as well, even though those are pretty poor at the moment, too.). But the problem there is the hammer's swing speed. It's just too slow, skill that have less than a 2 second casting time can be safely used in between your blows and those are generally the skills that have low recharge times - the spammable ones you care about taking down repeatedly, anyway, the long recharge skills only require a single use interrupt - so even if you get lucky and catch one it'll only be a few more seconds before they can try again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sphynx

It also occured to me that it would be a good idea to use it when your skills are short of adrenaline; you will likly be left doing several normal attacks to charge up the adrenaline skills at some point - why not spend that time interupting your target as well?

Wait, there's going to be times when you're out of adrenal and energy skills to use? Not if you're doing things right. The real hard part of coming out with an effective Warrior skill bar is to get one that has a pattern of skills you can do over and over again. You want as little downtime, as few crucial seconds during a battle, when you're not using a skill to aid you in bashing away at someone as possible. You want to go from adrenal to adrenal to energy to buffing spell to energy to adrenal to energy to normal and back all over again. 8 or 9 seconds of forgoing your skills is intolerable. Of course, this is the hammer line we're talking about, the land of 20 and 30 second recharges, so maybe you're on to something...

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicosharp

Now that most warriors seem to be the designated rezzers in a team, I think that this stance could be effective for a mid-battle after-adrenaline ressurection stopper. Of course, this skill is basically only effective on primary elementalists with aoe, a ranger trying to troll unguent, or primary/secondary monks with ressurection, unless you have the timing of a god.

No more effective than Distracting Blow. And that's not elite. That one swing is all you need. Rezzes take forever to cast, they're big ripe targets, you don't need to try that hard to blow them up as long as you've got interruption skills, period.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 16, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Merrily I double post to tell you all that the latest Spotlight is up here and you can find a build related to it here.

This time around it's that FoTM skill Victory is Mine! It's probably gotten enough attention to be due for a nerf or at least for opponent's to have figured out how to counteract it (Simple answer - use condition removal, but most teams should already be doing that), but there's a reason it's so popular right now: it works. And hopefully this latest column will explain why.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 17, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

The next Spotlight is lit here. I thought I'd try something new this time around and instead of looking at one skill, I took a look at a wide variety, namely those Mesmer skills that are primarily interrupts (sorry all you Ineptitude fans, you'll have to wait). No builds this time around since I think those skills are pretty common and I haven't really had much of an idea about how to make those that aren't better, but maybe I'll think up a few later on.

whiskas · Mar 17, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Nice article, I haven't run into many interrupters. Although I did encounter one in an arena match a couple BWE's ago that stuck in my mind. I was an all fire elementalist and was in the middle of casting something when I was suddenly interrupted, no big deal, I'll just select another... WHAT THE BLOODY HELL, all my skills were disabled, needless to say I was running around like a chicken with its head cut off for a good 10 seconds.

It might also be worth mentioning, that if you're a E/Me Power Block and Mind Burn/Freeze/Surge work nicely together, but thats more in the realm of energy stealing than interrupting.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 22, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

The latest Spotlight is up and it's a doozy. It's a bit of a compilation piece this time around but I think you'll find it's well worth it as it's an overview of many of the important changes from the past weekend. Read it here.

Mar 22, 2005, 07:09 AM // 07:09

The new Rituals, a source of much complaining and in need of balance

edit: Props to Rex for kicking Ether Lord when its down-again

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 22, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Yes, the rituals are chock full of abusive goodness. A few favorites by way of Zrave :

First, cast Fertile Season. Gain, say, 500 hp and armor (Zrave's pretty convinced the +AL is 40 rather than 24 and I'm inclined to agree). Next, find the range of Fertile Season, stroll to the edge, and take one step over. Lose 500 hp. Engage the enemy while staying close to Fertile Season. When you start to run low, step back into the Fertile Season. Gain 500 hp. Step back out again, step back in again, do the hokey pokey and have, effectively, infinite health.

Or, there's the old stand-by from the beta weekend. Cast Mantra of Inscriptions, cast Quickening Zephyr, cast Signet of Judgement. Then figure out something to do in the one second it takes SoJ to recharge. Cast again and enjoy flattening the enemy. You can toss in things like Mantra of Signets, Bane Signet, Leech Signet, and so on. Or, of course, you could always abuse the new Arcane Mimicry to get two SoJ on two characters on your team.

Sure, I won't expect a lot of the big abuses to last, but it's sure fun to think about while they do...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Props to Rex for kicking Ether Lord when its down-again

It's ever so much fun, isn't it? Anyone can rag on U-sig, I like a more challenging target.

Dreamsmith · Mar 22, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

There's a huge inconsistency between the guides and latest spotlight. Specifically, quoting the Warrior guide:

Quote:

Adrenal skills recharge based on a number of hits either received or dealt in combat and once that amount of adrenaline has been built up cost no energy to activate.

Note: "received or dealt".

From the latest spotlight:

Quote:

... A prime example of this would be the ready-made PvP build, the Protection Healer, where Bonetti’s was once used as both defense and cheap and dirty energy management on a character who wanted to heal away and was likely to get swarmed by Warriors. Now, unless you want to spend the time attacking to charge it up or have some other way of gaining adrenaline, it’s worthless, as you’ll never get to use it.

Huh? If I'm being swarmed by warriors, I should be receiving a lot of hits. Why am I not gaining adrenaline?

Which one of these articles is correct and which is in error?